Are you seriously saying that an Eagle scout putting a 2'' pocket knife in a survival kit in his car is a lack of descretion? There is no indication this kid had a 'love affair' with knives, or that he had a military style knife/weapon. It was a tool, in a kit, in his car.
Basic Emergenncy preparedness says you should have a survival kit in your car.

I keep a full size leatherman in my truck's glovebox, and I regularly pick up/drop off my kid from school. I suppose I should be arrested next time I pick up my kid for bringing a weapon on campus.

I will say that I was concerned that the school board reviewed the case and added more time to the scout's suspension. That leads me to believe that there is more to the story than the article let on.

I'm thinking that was revenge for mouthing off with "Pencils etc are just as dangerous". Our school definitely had Deans that would double or triple punishments when you said anything in your defense.

I got stopped at the Niagra Falls Canadian border about 5 years ago while on vacation. Apparently they don't like us redneck southern types up there... When I pulled up to the border entry point, they asked me if I owned any guns, and I truthfully told them yes and how many when they asked. They asked if I had any weapons in the truck and I told them no, so they proceded to search it anyway and found a razor knife in my locked tool box and started giving me crap about having a weapon. They didn't think it was funny when I started laughing at them and told them they better not bring that TOOL to a fight where I come from. I guess some folks just have a different perspective...

I live in downtown Chicago. Five days a week I take the blue line to and from work. I have had altercations on the train, and in the street. I carry a pocket knife (Under 3") with me at all times. I use it at work to open packages, and I keep it with me for peace of mind. Of course, given that guns (including airsoft and water) are outlawed in Chicago, I may get crap from someone for my knife as well.

Yes, I do call that a lack of discretion.

There is no way you can tell me he didn't know that knifes, any type of knife, were prohibited on campus. Either on his person or in his vehicle. I doesn't matter if he is an Eagle Scout, a Marine, the Mayor, or Superman. He broke the rules. He got caught. He was punished.

There is no excuse.

So having a tool in your car is translated to four weeks out of school?

What about all of the scissors or box cutters we had on campus? Why aren't those prohibited? In fact, why aren't all students padded and forced to use dull, radius angled, plastic tools at school?

No, having a knife if translated to 4 weeks out of school.

Heck, at Brandon (small town high school), every other guy had a pocket knife or a folding knife on his belt. There were lots of times my teachers would ask for my boot knife to open a package or fix the flimstrip projector. You couldn't bring a K-Bar or a gun, but a pocket knife wasn't even a blip on the teacher's radar. At lunch, you would always see 6-7 of us carving small toys or just whittling out front of the school while two or three other guys practiced with their nunchuks. Lots of guys had throwing stars as well...

... and not once did we have an incident where a kid used a weapon in a fight. Were we a completely different society back then? Was it that everyone knew that using a weapon wasn't just a suspension, it was a trip to the sherrif's office? Personally, I don't think it was either reason.

I was in 5 serious fights in high school (mostly because I was by far the smallest kid in my grade due to my being altitude challenged as well as a year younger than all my classmates), but never once did I even consider pulling a knife on someone. Neither did the large football players I was taking out with Judo throws or pinning with a body scissors move. We didn't shun weapons because we were afraid of the police. It was just that only a punk would resort to using a weapon.

A knife would have been cheating, and being known as the [hoo-ha] who cheated in a fight was worse than losing. Unfortunately, being a Man (with a capital "M") isn't as important as winning nowadays, so we have to have stupid laws and rules about things we didn't do before simply because it was tacky and because we had too much respect for ourselves to act like some two bit coward.

Seeing the insanity that exists in these particular incidents, I have nothing original to add to the topic.

However, I must say Im happy to attend the school that I do. The Merchant Marine Academy (and Im sure, the other academies) requires every freshman to have a blade on his person at all times. Many of us have the standard issue knife with something called a marlon spike on one end (never seen a better stabbing weapon), with a blade on the other; others have gone and bought something...more substantial.
This is a high stress place, with a semester's worth of material packed into every tri, and little other than engineering classes. People run thin on sleep and stress. Yet somehow, we dont have people pulling knives to solve issues... Even in my short time in civilian college I saw quite a few people with knives. I had a small collection on me at any given time, and still...nobody was stabbed or maimed.
It truly does boil down to intent. If you want to hurt someone bad enough, you will do so-be it with whatever is on your person, whatever is on your buddy, or that rock over there.

I was at our CAP meeting last night, trying to open a printer cartridge clamshell pack. You know, one of those nice plastic things that require you to use a chainsaw to open? I had left my Gerber Tool in my car and was having one heck of a time with it.

One of my cadets walked by, I just quickly yelled, "Hey Cadet Fluffy (name changed ), let me use your knife, please?" It wasn't visible, I didn't know that he actually had one, but I expected that he did. So, he pulls out a 3.5 inch buck knife and saves me a lot of time and aggravation.

I just expect that most of my cadets will be carrying a knife or multi-purpose tool on them, always. Different environments, different expectations, I suppose.

I haven't had a cadet die in my unit since 1944, and even then it was a senior member who shot him.

LMAO?

I always had a multitool or a knife on me as a cadet. Comes in handy - a lot.

Said as a joke, but certainly an event that did indeed happen.







Sorry for the hijack...

http://lightmyfireusa.com/spork.html

I keep one of these, in Safety Orange, in the center console of my car.

Woe be the guy who tells me that I've violated some rule with my plastic spork. I'll jam it in his eye socket and then run over him with my car.

If the kid were in CA, and had applied in triplicate for his license to carry said device, waited the obligatory 6-months, and had attended the CA "Diversity, Sporks, and You" class, then none of this would have been an issue.

I carry a leatherman in my glovebox, and in the boot (sorry, trunk ) of my car is a tyre wrench.

If for some reason I wanted to use something in my car as a weapon, I know which one I'd go for...

IMO, this chap broke the rules and should be punished according to the severity of the incident - i.e. very lightly. A detention, perhaps, and a stern warning not to bring the knife in again.

Had he been carrying a K-bar on his person and pulled it out in a confrontation, then it would have been reasonable to issue a more severe punishment.

And my neighbor got sent to juvie for trying to stab his teacher with a pencil. I can (sorta) understand that, but his brother only got a couple days for carrying a "suspicious substance" that turned out to be weed. That and a talk with a cop. No lasting consequences. My justice nerves are twitching...

BTW that's in grade school.


E: Admittedly, the post below is true.

You can't compare violent actions to drug offenses.

That sounds perfectly fair to me, what's the problem?

I was a cub scout, a long time ago. Some of the things I learned are still useful today.

I remember in 5th grade I showed up to school and then I remembered I had a pocket knife in my cargo shorts. I walked up to my teacher, gave him the knife, and told him that I just forgot I had it. He commented that he liked the knife, and told me just to put in back in my pocket until the end of the school day.

Why can't we just do that?

Because that would actually be sensible, and involve enforcing the spirit of the rules rather than the letter.

Good buddy of mine says, "You can have a zero-tolerance policy. It's what you do after that matters."

Meaning that I can have zero-tolerance for people getting into fights, swearing, bringing knives, etc - but the action afterwards is the part that takes thinking. I don't permit knives at all, but the situation revolving around that knife is going to be the determinant of what I do.

You're correct, of course, however as someone who owns a home, and other stuff litigants typically want when "excitement" happens,
some of this is CYA all around.

I teach people how to ride motorcycles for the state. We had an issue not long ago where a struggling student hit another student from behind (tapped) fell over and allegedly injured his wrist. Happens all the time, dust off, back on, or dust off go home, but no biggie (any damage is compliments of the Gov'na).

He gets lawyered up and starts looking for money anywhere he can find it. Who does he sue? The rider he hit with the comment that the defendant was "going too slow" (despite the fact that we repeat over and over that if you're too close, you slow down).

This person now has no choice but to defend himself in civil court (along with the program) at considerable expense. The program has deep(ish) pockets, liability coverage, and procedure to use getting the suit knocked out of court. The rider has none of that.

ZT-policies take away much of that risk, because they also take away the options - follow the checklist and you should be ok.

((*cough*)) tort reform ((*cough*))

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/edu ... buste.html

Newest story related to this. A 4th grader was playing with a Lego police officer toy at lunch, and gave the police toy a 2" machine gun. The rest is just unbelievable.

In retrospect, the Spork knife I can understand compared to this...

Why would a 9yo need to sign anything?

Because the principal was deep into CYA mode! Of course a statement signed by a 9 year old is pretty much worthless too.

What's lacking in every story is discretion.

The school failing to distinguish an eating utensil from a weapon.
The eagle scout informing the school that he had a knife in his car.
The school failing to distinguish the difference between a 2-inch plastic replica, and a full-size, operational firearm.

At least with the two knives, you could argue that a well-trained combatant could cause some serious injuries. The Lego toy is absurd beyond belief.

All this, and yet a school will still issue a plastic ID card, the edges of which can be sharpened and used as an improvised blade.

I'm curious, do schools still allow shoe laces? They can make a pretty handy garrote.


[Edited for typos]

JasonSmith wrote:
cnitas wrote:
Seriously, how much more dangerous is a folding table knife as compared to a sharpened pencil, bic pen, or a plastic ruler


Or those gigantic paper cutters that scream for a finger!




You likely won't see this kind of cutter in most schools - if they have anything it'll be the roller type,
Ummm...there are about 500 of these thing in my school. we have NO rollar types.

FWIW, "Zero Tolerance" is a very specific legally barring the administrative staff from using good judgement and discretion when applying punlishment. It /forbids/ them from thinking, on the grounds that, if they think wrong, or even just differently than what someone elses suggests - or - with the information they have - they make a call at the moment that seems fine but has bad consequences - they can be sued.

Practically, Zero Tolerance is a legal risk-management posture.

It's also crap.

Some comments ...



Sure. You can also get stitches from tripping too hard on a curb; should every curb in the USA say "Danger - tripping - watch your step" ?



If that's what you want, it's not zero-tolerance. Either we need a better term, or we need to change the accepted legal definition.

In the eagle scout case -- I wonder what would have happened if he had the doors locked and asked for a warrant. The Constitution protects against unlawful search and seizure, right?

I suspect what actually happened is similar to what other people have surmised - he was bragging so much that someone turned him in, and the administrators found his attitude so appalling that they wanted to find something to punish him with.




I would have said "you know, I didn't ever think of that as a weapon. Huh. You know, if I had planned to do something bad, which I do not, I wouldn't have needed to smuggle it into your country. I could have just crossed the border first, then bought something like that at Home Depot. I can understand you assuming bad intent, but you don't need to assume I'm STUPID."


--heusser

School grounds = less privacy rights for students.

Random searches of lockers have been upheld in most states and this is basically the same thing, though since the school wouldn't have the
easy ability to open a locker if the student refused, it could have gotten a lot messier. My guess would be the police would impound and tow
the car, and it would sit in a municipal lot while the question worked its way through the courts.