During the NJ Wing's West Point trip this year, I ran into a senior member currently involved in ROTC. However, he informed me that he planned on denying his commission, and would enter the Army as a Spec-4 following his graduation. Prior to this, I'd assumed that once you've signed the paperwork, you have to be an officer. Is it in fact possible to deny an ROTC commission, and enter as an enlisted man?

Do you remember this SM's name? PM me...

You can refuse to take the oath, and once you are commissioned you can resign your commission as well. However, once you take that oath you are obligated to meet certain retainability requirements (you have to serve for x amount of time). Upon contracting at the academies or rotc, you assume a retainability obligation that you will commission. If you don't, then they can either force you to enlist, or they can just recoup the money (meaning you have to pay it back out of your pocket), there are all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo involved here.

It does happen that sometimes people get into a program and find out that it's not for them... And sometimes they don't find out until later. Sometimes circumstances change in your life, or your family. There are ways out, but some of those ways come with a price.

However, quite frankly, anyone who *INTENDS* to do this to the system is not worthy of being commissioned in the first place, and is probably fraudulently enrolled in the program now, and may possibly even be committing an actual crime. I'm not really interested in that person even being a specialist, for that matter. It's pretty difficult to prove intent in a matter like this, but it's a pretty serious breach of integrity whether you get caught or not.

Don't be that guy.

My PAS in ROTC had the general attitude that if you were someone who pulled a stunt like this, they did whatever you didn't want. If you just wanted out, they made you serve and let the MTI's kick your [fourth point of contact] for a bit.

If you thought you'd just enlist and get out and not do anything, they'd make you pay the money back.

But yeah, that's really a toolish thing to do. Just say ahead of time you don't want to do it, that guy should just let his cadre know so they can stop wasting time/money on him.

I don't really understand the logic here. He has 3 options after signing the contract.
1. Graduate and get the commission.
2. Break the contract and pay back all funds and/or support the Army spent. This includes any stipends and and scholarship money.
3. Break the contract and enlist at grade E-1, no need to pay back and funds received. There is no provision for going in as an E-4 after breaking the contract.

The option is at the choice of the cadet, not of the Army.

Why would you go through everything and not accept the commission?

I wonder if the cadre know what he's planning to do. Just because he's planning to do this doesn't mean he's actually told them.

Its fullish to judge his comments without fully knowing the individual's situation. The question was if it i in fact possible to deny a ROTC commission and enter as enlisted. The answer is yes, it is possible. I've witnessed it happen. In fact back in 2003 through 2005 this was increasingly common due to the USAF's force shaping. Whether or not his decision is justified is for him and the AF/Army to decide.

I've seen college graduates take the E-3 option over the O-1 option. I can't explain why they would do such a thing ... I don't know if it's a enlisted vs. officer mentality, they don't want the responsibility, they want some of the benefits (if you can call it that) of enlisted over officer ... I really don't know.

What I do know is this:

E-3 <2 Years of service
Base Pay: $19,796.40
BAS: $3,886.44
BAH (CONUS average): $11,424.00
Annual Pay: $35,106.84

O-1 <2 Years of service
Base Pay: $31,863.60
BAS: $2,676.48
BAH (CONUS average): $13,800.00
Annual Pay: $48,340.08

I rest my case.

Unless he/she is married, it is unlikely for an E-3 to draw BAS and BAH.

That's true ... my bad, I've been getting BAS/BAH since day 1. So okay, 2 1/2 years as E-3 to make E-4 BTZ, move out of the dorms, and get BAS/BAH. Even furthers my point.

Hell, I've been an E-5 for over a year and I'm still trapped in the barracks. Just 6 more months and I'll finally get that E-5 BAH (9/11 GI Bill)

Many years ago, I served a U.S. Navy Quartermaster Second Class (QM2 / E5) who had graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy. For reasons he would never divulge, he did not accept a commission. Evidently, at least at the time, the thought was that a USNA graduate had enough navigation training to become a QM and, when a Midshipman refused to commission, they were instead appointed a QM2, USN with (if I recall correctly) three years of active duty enlisted service.

R,

I beleive the angst from above members comes from having seen it happen before. Our class just took the commitment oath a couple weeks ago, and we had classmates leave rather than commit. Happens every year.

Agreed..
I've seen cadets walk right before commission, I've seen those who just took the oath back off and end up enlisted, I've seen the AF let cadets out even after FT with no repercussion. In my years of service and prior as a dependent I've learned that there is one rule: that there is no standard rule. All decisions are made on an individual basis. Why an individual may choose to deny his own commission is that individual's decision and shall be left to his military source to justify his reasoning. Meanwhile everyone else can only speculate.

I recently found out that one of my cadets from WVU did precisely this - told the Air Force that he didn't want to be a missileer and live at cold bases, wanted to be Spec Ops or a pilot, blah blah blah.

They didn't give him the option to payback the scholarship, but rather got him a contract to BMTS for Security Forces.

Now instead of sitting below the ground in a capsule - he's a Security Forces dude sitting outside guarding topside at an alert facility in Wyoming. Not even joking. I haven't heard from him - but I'm fairly sure that he's probably regretting that career move now.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Not smart thinking.

AFPC can be pretty vindictive and they are known to hold a grudge or two.

So I'll take it there's no "just kidding" option if you get stuck with an enlisted job you don't like? You have to deny the commissioning first and then roll the (unfriendly) dice?

Yeah, basically its like this:

Dope: "I don't want a commission after the 4 years of school you put me thru."
AFPC: "OK, here, we'll process your commission denial. Followed by your enlistment."
Dope: "Enlistment? Oh, I suppose.."
AFPC: "OK, here's your drop from your commissioning source. Here, lets swear you in as an enlisted Airman."
Dope: "Wait, whats my job?"
AFPC: "Needs of the service, Airman."
Dope: "Wait, no, I want to pick my job."
AFPC: "No, sorry, that's allowed for first term airmen who don't have a 6 year ROTC scholarship repayment. You, on the other hand, get a nice 'needs of the service' enlistment option. See the document you signed 4 years ago? Remember this?"
Dope: "uhhh, yeah, can I take that commission?"
AFPC: "Oh, no, sorry, we already removed you from ROTC, thus you're no longer eligible for commissioning."
Dope: "So, wait, I still have to enlist?"
AFPC: "Yep, not a question of 'if' its a question of 'now.' I hear Fort Leavenworth is really nice this time of year. Raise your right hand and repeat after me."

Even more vindictive - his PAS was a missileer...

100% true.

I don't see why there is so much antipathy with being a missileer... I couldn't have thought of a better opportunity to work on my master's degree. We've had plenty who tried to switch AFSCs shortly after they were told during training they were going to have to "turn the key." Best way to infuriate the Commander is to try to find some loop hole in the system just to suit your private needs.

Ellie, I thought you went to SUPT....?

Cuz most of the chuckleheads who would do this aren't thinking about master's degrees? They don't see missiles as being "Air Force," but rather: if its not "flying," its "shoe clerking." They were asleep during "The Mission of the United States Air Force" briefings, I guess....

Honestly, the Air Force is probably better off without them.

The dice aren't necessarily unfriendly. It really is a case-by-case situation - I'm a "reclass" from navigator training, and I put Space/Missiles as my first choice, as it happened space/missiles was in high demand at the moment. A friend of mine from OTS (another reclass) put Space/Missiles as his first choice, but got Civil Engineering since that was his degree. Another friend got S/M initially, but then got switched to Intel since he had a degree in MidEast Studies.

It may be different between enlisted and officer, but as long as you're sincere about your reasoning, you have a better chance of getting something close to what you want than if you're trying to "game the system."

On the enlisted side, at least at BMT, if you came in with a guaranteed AFSC as part of your enlistment contract, they have to give it to you. If you don't get it you have the option is taking a trainee discharge (it's considered honorable, but you get no VA benefits since you weren't in for 180 days) and leaving or staying in and taking what they need that day.
If you come in under an "open" contract then you get what they give you and you have no option other then to take it.

For whatever reason, Navs have notoriously seen Space and Missiles as an ugly career field. ("If it's not rated, [your job] it doesn't count.") In most of 2009, the majority of IFS/UQT washouts, as well as those officers who knowingly chose to accept being a Nav as their only ticket to commission, got reclassed as 13S. That was in part because of high demand. But it was also an underlying means of it being some sort of punishment for those who chose to. (I heard this first hand from the Nav instructors as well as AFPC at Randolph.) As with everything, there were exceptions to this. Certain individuals who had degrees to match, go reselected to others such as Intel, Maintenance, and Engineering.

Regardless, this created a very negative environment for those who continued on to Missile IQT. Many already had a negative view what the life of a missileer would be like before they even got the chance to see for themselves.

The bottom line is that one shouldn't request a commission with the mindset of only wanting one career field. At the end, it it truly is the needs of the Air Force that come first. So don't be surprised if you don't get what you thought you wanted.

Part is that to get to flight training you have to have your TS done - the Air Force wants to avoid paying for more TS's as much as possible and will reclass those guys to 13S and 33S as long as there are vacancies, and just about anyone with an engineering degree is coming to CE (as well as 13S's that lose PRP or get DUIs that get detailed awating UCMJ actions or reclassing).

33S is going away in October, and being replaced with 17D which also now requires a TS.
It is also going from 5 weeks to 6 months training, and is expected to have a wash-out rate.

Make that April.
Things change fast.